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Discuss anything about DLC

Postby Zaragor » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:29 am

Krom wrote:To some extent, Pally aggro is still essentially based on mana pool. Paladins are by far the best for holding aggro on multiple mobs, especially demons and undead (Followed by druids, then warriors). Since Pallies also get mana back when healed, they can generate a fair amount of threat before going dry (and can almost never go out of mana on fights which require alot of healing).

Main abilities are Seal of Righteousness/Command, Judgement of Righteousness/Command, Consecration, Holy Shield, Retribution Aura and Avengers Shield. Two abilities are AE (one requires ranged), 2 Abilities are reactive (mob must be hitting you) and Seals/Judgements which are your bread and butter. Plus Paladins have a taunt now which taunts up to 3 (I think!?) mobs on to you.

There's even decent Paladin tanking gear out there now with Stam, MP5 and Defense on it.


You forget the new seal, Seal of Vengeance. It's AMAZING for tanking. It's a stackable DOT that does holy damage and the judge hits for around 900 with barely 250 spelldmg. That surely generates alot of aggro. Imo, Seal of Command isn't worth it when tanking, since it's proc based and seal of righteousness has more overall damage when using 1H.
I also noticed you forgot Redoubt and more importantly, Reckoning and Blessing of Sanctuary. Reckoning makes sure you hit alot more, and each hit can proc seals. Dedoubt makes you more likely to block, and therefore do holy damage through Holy shield and Blessing of Sanctuary. This is especially nice against multiple mobs. However, both redoubt and reckoning depends on the mob hitting you, so it can be unreliable.

Paladins tanking gear is named "of the crusade", and includes def, spelldmg and int. Imo, it should be sta instead of int, and I would have used it. Spelldamage is more important than mp/5, since most of our aggro comes from the holy damage we deal. In raids, our mana will almost never go down, and if it does, a druid should innervate us.

Personally, for pure tanking, I would go something like this: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

OR

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Imo, weapon expertise is simply a waste of talent points, since it's benefits arn't that great. Reckoning is a MUST for tankadins as it makes you able to quickly stack SoV on a target or do alot of damage through SoR. 10% more damage through 1H weapon is even more of a waste, since our threat comes from holy damage, and normal damage is simply a waste. A difficult choise is between int or str. Str gives you more blocked, while int gives you more mana and more crit chance with spells, which means more aggro. Personally, I like int better than str, but I may be wrong here.

What is most fun as a paladin tank is to tank 3 mobs, then when low on HP, I turn on my bubble and taunt. This will ensure I still have aggro for ~3 sec while having 100% damage mitigation.

Paladins ARE better tanks for multiple mobs, due to our holy damage abilities. Paladin prot talents are no longer based on our opponents ability to crit, only to hit you, which means faster-hitting (or multiple ones) or mobs with DOT attacks will be far easier to tank. See redoubt, holy shield and reckoning for more details.

Paladins have problems tanking many casters, especially those that mana drains or silences. These mobs will be better off tanked by a druid or warrior. Paladin might also have better damage mitigation, since against certain fast-hitting mobs or mobs with undispellable dots, we basically have almost a constant +60% chance to block their attacks, which is more than a normal warrior.
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Postby Zaragor » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:36 am

Also, regarding druid tanks, I know they are amazing, but I still think their inability to gather epic items with +def on makes them worse tanks than warriors or paladin who actually get tanking sets as tier 4 or tier 5 armor.

On 5 man instances, I would take a feral druid tank over a paladin or warrior any day, unless the warrior or paladin has better gear, but i'm not so sure about raids as a druid that want to get +def gear has to forgo other stats that could be more useful. Crushing blows and Crits are really nasty in raids, as crits can basically one-shot a tank, even if that tank is a druid. I can certainly see some fights where a druid tank would be appropriate, but mostly, I still think warriors and even paladins are superior.

Note, this is assuming the warrior, druid and paladin all have above certain gear quality, such as 4-5 epics with rest rares form lvl 70 instances.
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Postby Krom » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:10 pm

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Postby vemynal » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:33 pm

Zaragor wrote:
Krom wrote:To some extent, Pally aggro is still essentially based on mana pool. Paladins are by far the best for holding aggro on multiple mobs, especially demons and undead (Followed by druids, then warriors). Since Pallies also get mana back when healed, they can generate a fair amount of threat before going dry (and can almost never go out of mana on fights which require alot of healing).

Main abilities are Seal of Righteousness/Command, Judgement of Righteousness/Command, Consecration, Holy Shield, Retribution Aura and Avengers Shield. Two abilities are AE (one requires ranged), 2 Abilities are reactive (mob must be hitting you) and Seals/Judgements which are your bread and butter. Plus Paladins have a taunt now which taunts up to 3 (I think!?) mobs on to you.

There's even decent Paladin tanking gear out there now with Stam, MP5 and Defense on it.


You forget the new seal, Seal of Vengeance. It's AMAZING for tanking. It's a stackable DOT that does holy damage and the judge hits for around 900 with barely 250 spelldmg. That surely generates alot of aggro. Imo, Seal of Command isn't worth it when tanking, since it's proc based and seal of righteousness has more overall damage when using 1H.
I also noticed you forgot Redoubt and more importantly, Reckoning and Blessing of Sanctuary. Reckoning makes sure you hit alot more, and each hit can proc seals. Dedoubt makes you more likely to block, and therefore do holy damage through Holy shield and Blessing of Sanctuary. This is especially nice against multiple mobs. However, both redoubt and reckoning depends on the mob hitting you, so it can be unreliable.

Paladins tanking gear is named "of the crusade", and includes def, spelldmg and int. Imo, it should be sta instead of int, and I would have used it. Spelldamage is more important than mp/5, since most of our aggro comes from the holy damage we deal. In raids, our mana will almost never go down, and if it does, a druid should innervate us.

Personally, for pure tanking, I would go something like this: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

OR

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Imo, weapon expertise is simply a waste of talent points, since it's benefits arn't that great. Reckoning is a MUST for tankadins as it makes you able to quickly stack SoV on a target or do alot of damage through SoR. 10% more damage through 1H weapon is even more of a waste, since our threat comes from holy damage, and normal damage is simply a waste. A difficult choise is between int or str. Str gives you more blocked, while int gives you more mana and more crit chance with spells, which means more aggro. Personally, I like int better than str, but I may be wrong here.

What is most fun as a paladin tank is to tank 3 mobs, then when low on HP, I turn on my bubble and taunt. This will ensure I still have aggro for ~3 sec while having 100% damage mitigation.

Paladins ARE better tanks for multiple mobs, due to our holy damage abilities. Paladin prot talents are no longer based on our opponents ability to crit, only to hit you, which means faster-hitting (or multiple ones) or mobs with DOT attacks will be far easier to tank. See redoubt, holy shield and reckoning for more details.

Paladins have problems tanking many casters, especially those that mana drains or silences. These mobs will be better off tanked by a druid or warrior. Paladin might also have better damage mitigation, since against certain fast-hitting mobs or mobs with undispellable dots, we basically have almost a constant +60% chance to block their attacks, which is more than a normal warrior.



im horde :P i dont get SoV i get SoB
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Postby Twilighted » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:17 pm

I refer to this sheet here; http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6833 ... ionnx0.jpg, for everyone to compare druid and warrior tanks :3

I'd still rather take a feral to non-heroic 5-mans, the dps they do compared to warrrior is pure <3 for a nice speed run.
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Postby Zaragor » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:24 am

Krom wrote:Zaragor owns me, true story.


When I constantly argue with my classleaders and correcting them, I should say I know alot about the paladin class and the game in general.

I started playing wow during the EU open Beta and I've also played warrior, mage and priest end-game which helps alot.

I find 5 man heroic instances really challenging, since the mobs (and especially bosses) hit really hard. Thus, I would actually prefer a warrior or paladin (with tanking gear mind you) to a druid. I heard Shattered hall mobs can hit warriors/druid for 2-3k. With crits for 4-6k, the healers are going to have a really tough job keeping the druid up.

As I said earlier, +def makes the difference in druid tanking vs paladin/warrior tanking. Blocks also helps alot here. Crushing and Crits are often underestimated, but they are a real pain in the ass as a healer.

Besides, the tank shouldn't DPS, and if your DPS classes can't DPS enough, either they don't have the gear to take the instance or they are slacking.

The perfect group as I see it in BC would be:

Tank (pref prot warrior or prot paladin)
Primary healer (pref resto druid or holy paladin or priest)
Secondary healer/support DPS (pref retri paladin, shadow priest or feral druid)
DPS class(depends on instance, but generally rogue, mage, hunter, lock or shaman)
DPS class (see above)

Also, I would prefer that most have good enough gear for the instance. If we're doing a heroic instance, I would prefer people to have mostly lvl 68+ blue/epic gear.
If just a normal lvl 70 instance run, I don't really care about gear, just skills.

And yes, Blood Knights generally have a harder time tanking, but Seal of Blood is a superior damage seal. It is really good at tanking from what I heard, but generally Seal of Righteousness will outdo it if you have reckoning, since the damage you take can be fatal for a tank.
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Postby Krom » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:13 pm

I've done Heroic Ramparts about 4-5 times, Heroic Botanica (half of it) once and Heroic Slave Pens.

The nastiest mobs so far are the Naga Defenders in Slave Pens, the robots in Botanica and the Raveners in Ramparts. I have 13.1k hp unbuffed /w blues, Karazhan epics and a couple random quest rewards and around 12k armor, 510 defense, 45 pts in protection, etc. The raveners hit me for about 3k main hand and 2k offhand and pretty much chew through my life (the robots in botanica hit anywhere from 4k to 6k and de-aggro... good times). The defenders in Slave Pens are immune to CC and the group I was with didn't have a frost mage (plus they have spell reflect shields) so I just ended up tanking them (admittedly a fire mage could kite them using frost spells, but Xylla sucks @ mage, true story). They hit for 3k-4k and 2 at once is pretty ow, so it's a good thing they're stunnable (Keydar/Conc Blow/Revenge stuns 4tw).

I know pretty much every class and the only one I haven't tried at end game (60 endgame that is) is warlock. It's funny tho, since retiring my paladin i've pretty much ignored many things dealing with the class and don't know it as well as I should anymore. I'm also not around many of them either. Of me and my friends, there were 6 of us as the main raiding paladins and 3 of us re-rolled/changed mains (Human Mage - Xylla, NE Warrior - Me, Draenei Shaman - Kalliope), one quit outright, another plays either his Warrior or his Hunter (both @ 70 now) even though he's planning on leveling his pally next. Which only leaves one guy who actually plays his pally and a couple RL friends, but I don't get near enough time around them as I'm either PL'ing Kall or grinding reps/doing heroics.
Last edited by Krom on Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Krom » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:20 pm

The group we ran alot was Mage (Frost), Mage (Frost), Druid (0/30/31), Rogue (IMP SAP KEYDAR, DU IT), Warrior (Prot), but it just doesn't cut it in heroics with only one healer.

Now that a few other friends are hitting 70 it'll be a bit easier once we rep them out. Something along the lines of:
Mage (Arc/Frost), Mage (Fire), Druid (0/30/31), Warrior (Prot), Pally (holy)
or
switching in Keydar or a Shaman (Enh/Resto) for one of the mages or the pally respectively.

The last few nights we've been hitting instances to level the shaman and our groups have often been Warrior (prot), Warrior (fury), Paladin (holy), Shaman (enh) and Mage (frost) which works pretty decent.
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Postby Zaragor » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:20 am

Yeah, Shamans do the same things as the paladin in most instances. Have any1 yet considered paladins to be tank for heroic instances? I know my friend (warlock main atm) ran with a paladin tank and he said it was amazing. Their group was:
Rogue (mutilate spec, had imp. sunder armor and imp sap)
Warlock (aff spec)
Paladin (prot)
Druid (Resto)
Shaman (Enhancement)

From what I've heard, having that 2nd healer is essencial for 5 man instances, and with the shaman group buffs (heroism or bloodlust, plus totems) combined with paladin's group buffs (blessings and aura), your group would eat through anything.

Having tanked several non-heroic 5 man instances, I find that paladins usually have more damage reduction than most warriors (through block). Redoubt has only a 10% chance while proccing, but I find it always ALWAYS active, and that it procs more than reckoning. Since most warriors I meet nowadays are fury or arms with only a handful of talents in prot at most, I havn't had a real chance to compare prot paladin vs prot warrior tanks in action.
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Postby vemynal » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:11 am

Zaragor wrote:Having tanked several non-heroic 5 man instances, I find that paladins usually have more damage reduction than most warriors (through block). Redoubt has only a 10% chance while proccing, but I find it always ALWAYS active, and that it procs more than reckoning.


its 10% chance every time we are hit with a melee or ranged, so take a ogue for example. if his offhand hit u every time he can do 10 hits in maybe 4 seconds? 5? mind thats pvp but u get the idea.


reckoning is 10% on our hit, so it really just depends how many are hitting us/ 1v1 who has the fast attack speed
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Postby vemynal » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:17 am

zara, outta the specs u linked i like this one:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000
(slightly modified)

only down side is no imp parry :P

or do u think that imp seal of rightoeusness is better then imp parry?

cause im know i aint gonna be tanking with seal of blood :P
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Postby Zaragor » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:59 am

vemynal wrote:its 10% chance every time we are hit with a melee or ranged, so take a ogue for example. if his offhand hit u every time he can do 10 hits in maybe 4 seconds? 5? mind thats pvp but u get the idea.

reckoning is 10% on our hit, so it really just depends how many are hitting us/ 1v1 who has the fast attack speed


In fact, reckoning can be procced by flames and some DOT as well! That's why it's so great, Me and a friend dueled, so I kept close to a flame to make it proc redoubt and reckoning. I ate his HP away really fast with that. Have yet to try if all warlocks dots can proc it, I know magma totem can at least.

zara, outta the specs u linked i like this one:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000
(slightly modified)

only down side is no imp parry

or do u think that imp seal of rightoeusness is better then imp parry?

cause im know i aint gonna be tanking with seal of blood


Depends, I would probably swich imp SoCrusader with parry if I were to tank. 3% more parry will help a lot. Since you're horde, I would probably add imp SoR, since you don't have a decent tanking seal like alliance (havn't tried it personally, but from what I've heard, SoB is terrible for tanking as it usually have less damage than SoR). For alliance, i would simply only put 5 points in holy, and lump more in the prot tree.


Edit: Thought I should add my current spec here. Note that it's NOT the optimal tanking specc, but it's a really nice hybrid spec that completely PWNS in arena (I'm immortal, and I heal my mate, which means he is close to immortal :D)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

It is very decent tanking normal 5 man instances, but I lack the aggro generation abilities of a pure tanking specced paladin. However, I am a very good healer as I have illumination, which means I can heal for forever.
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Postby Jurn » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:10 am

so what about that comic 78 great one aint it
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Postby Krom » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:48 am

Zaragor wrote:<spec>


All I have to say is... Captain America! The animation on it is so lol.
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Postby Zaragor » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:35 pm

Jurn wrote:so what about that comic 78 great one aint it


nice try getting back on topic, you know that won't happen!

PS: Krom, have you tried arena? I played arena with my spec and guess what happened?

Blue geared warrior's Execute crits you for 106 (246 blocked).
Blue geared warrior's pummel was blocked
Blue geared warrior suffers 174 damage from your holy shield.
Blue geared warrior suffers 46 damage from your blessing of sanctuary.
Your flash of light heals you for 1146
Blue geared warrior's Mortal Strike hits you for 212.
Blue geared warrior's Hamstring was blocked.
Blue geared warrior suffers 173 damage from your holy shield.
Blue geared warrior suffers 46 damage from your blessing of sanctuary.


I have about 11k armor which is a nice 52% reduction. add Argent defender which gives me 50% reduction (to a total of 75% reduction) Add to this 6% more reduction and subtract the damage done by 80. Guess he loved me afterwards :D
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