The Basic Tanking Guide

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Postby Bunnytots » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:51 pm

I perfer to learn everything through experince. Also, the way this guide implies, you do not need that much stamina. Personally I perfer tanks with roughly 25-28k health, which is not alot, I had that from 78-80 as prot, and for plate wears def rating atleast at wat the req. is, and some other skill as high as they can possibly make it with whatever they have left over.

I believe my pally tank friend has block capped (is that possible? i dueled him and only my crits got thru his block, which is not saying much since I crit like a fiend) and I didn't inspect my DK tank friend recently either so I do not know what is going on with him.
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Postby à» Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:30 pm

Same. I prefer to learn everything through experience. Overall it makes you a more skillful player, because you find the playstyle that works for you.
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Postby Redneckizm » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:29 am

Mage Guide to DPS from a Bear perspective...

Please do not announce in /P that "You only have 3 sec to grab aggro while I cast pyroblast"... you will quickly be removed from group.

Please do not start your "AoE Pit" around the tank before the mobs actually get to the tank. Yes, your Mirror Images are cute and look just like you, Wait for the tank to get some aggro before all 4 of you start Pyroblasting the target. I'm really not impressed with your 3K DPS when 1/2 of it is before the Mob gets to the tank.

Please quit Poly Pulling while the Healer is drinking, we all die... again

Please, If you do not understand the Kill order as marked by the tank... ask, It's usually "Skull, X, Square and then whatever is left (Moon/sap)" If you get assigned a Poly target (most likely the moon), that is your target until we are out of combat... yes, you might have to reapply Polymorph.

Please do buff the group with AI, even the Druid tank, they sometimes have to pop out to innervate the Healer, hot themselves, switch forms etc... all that uses mana.

Don't wait to the end of the run to "forget to tell the group" that you don't have reagents or didn't buy that portal back to town yet.

I have been playing my Bear Tank a lot recently, I gave up tree form and prefer to wiggle my big furry butt in people's faces. For some reason my server has shifted far to the Healer side, I was a Tree Healer and there were tanks everywhere tryin to find Heals, since Wrath there are heals everywhere and nobody to tank :?: Wrath doesn't appear to be very friendly to Prot Warr's with Multi-mob tanking, It appears to be more Pally/Bear/DK friendly with more AoE tank abilities.

When I line up the pull, I mark up the Skull, X, Square, Moon (if we have a mage) and Star (Sap if we have Rogue). I throw up a ready check, ask for the Sap/Poly, Faerie Fire the X (#2 target), Growl at the Square (#3 Target) and the Skull should be at me by now, I open with a Mangle, Lacerate, Mangle, Lacerate, Swipe, (NOW you can go for you 3K DPS), Lacerate, Maul, refresh Mangle, and then start Maul & Swiping away... I keep all my attack order hotkeyed so all I have to do is go down the line on my Keyboard and use my mouse to change targets.

I know you are good at Burst DPS, when your in PvE Dungeons/Instances/Raids, let's work on Progressive DPS :D
Last edited by Redneckizm on Fri May 22, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kishana » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:08 am

Oh the joys of people who make guides that offer no real information or, worse yet, incorrect information. Smidge about me, I've tanked most BC encounters and all Wrath encounters (including 3 Drake Sartharion) on my prot warrior and now doing the same on my new Frost Tank DK (3 prot warriors constantly raiding seems silly and DK DPS seems to be smacked in the head with stupid for jobs like death gripping sparks.) A couple of the gritty mechanics might be a bit outdated since I haven't crunched numbers in Wrath.

Threat and Aggro
First off, threat and aggro are generally discussed as separate things. There are two categories of threat, the innate threat that any ability has before healing/damage is taken into consideration, and the threat caused by damage and healing. Damage threat is damage dealt to the mob, and healing threat is healing done (not including overhealing) divided by two, then evenly divided amongst all mobs present (I'm 90% sure on this. Haven't raid healed since vanilla WoW). If you're within melee range, if you go over 110% of the current target's threat, you gain aggro. If you're outside of melee range, you need to go over 130% of the current target's threat to gain aggro.

The taunt mechanic is sometimes misunderstood as well. There's two bits to it. There's forcing the mob to attack you and there's gaining the threat of the current target. Deathgrip, mocking blow, etc. only force the mob to attack you, whereas the taunt effects, dark command and taunt, brings your threat up to the current target's threat AND forces the mob to attack you. So, if you're just making sure the mob attacks you while a mage meter humps, use mocking blow to establish it for a bit, let him hump, then taunt off right when mocking blow is done and open up some heavy threat.

Defense
Defense accomplishes several things at once. It reduces your chance to be hit, reduces your chance to be critically hit, increases your chance to block, dodge, and parry. To tank heroics and raids, you need to be uncrittable; druids are the only exception. Our furry friends are uncrittable out of the gate.
Defense is useless to druids. Stam stacking and agi stacking are far superior to any enchants/gems they can get.

Hit and Expertise
For a prot warrior, Expertise is *always* better than hit. No. You're wrong. Always better. If a raid boss can still parry (meaning you don't already have 60+ expertise skill), that -0.25% chance to the boss to parry you is still superior to +0.25% chance for you to hit. If you want the nitty gritty of why, check out some of my sites at the end of my post.
For paladins and DKs, you have spells as well, so it's a little less certain there. Still, aiming for the soft cap (-6.50%)is a good idea.

Talents -
15/5/51
Right now, Deep wounds is the way to go. Really. It's *sick*. My deep wounds 25-man buffed are nearly 20% of my DPS. And remember, in defensive stance, DPS = ~135% threat.
Ignoring some of the basic must haves....
Arms -
Deflection 5/5
Imp Heroic Strike 3/3
Impale 2/2
Deep Wounds 3/3

Prot -
Imp Thunder Clap 3/3
Incite 3/3
Why? Well, Thunder clap crits = deep wounds. 30% crit chance in raids means you can TC and put up deep wounds on most of your targets in fairly short order. Puncture isn't necessary with the rage we get now, especially since devastate isn't our most important skill anymore. And take anything that buffs your shield abilities.

Prot Warrior Priority
Shield slam
Revenge
Concussion Blow
Shockwave
Devastate

Yes, devastate is at the bottom of that. No, it really is. Devastate has the lowest threat out of all those abilities. Yes, it can proc sword and board, but rage is pretty easy to come by now and the others do a *lot* more threat and damage. I explain this to one of my fellow prot warriors and his DPS jumped up about 200 DPS, his threat jumped up at least 500 TPS if memory serves. And for the love of God, if you're above 50 rage, SPAM THAT HEROIC STRIKE! Spam it nice.

In short (lol?) you need a balance of experience and knowledge. One will never replace the other. I've seen amazing tanks that didn't know a couple key things and gimp their threat/damage output by 20%. I've seen "experienced" tanks telling newbies the completely *wrong* information. I've also seen tanks that really know their stuff to completely flop around on AoE pulls and panic the entire time.

Stay frosty. But take responsibility. If you die and subsequently the raid dies and you have one cooldown, one potion, one healthstone you didn't use? Your fault. Try harder next time ;)

www.tankingtips.com - Veneratio has a great blog here and it's very newbie friendly
www.tankspot.com - Conglomerate of great info, raid tactics and videos, forums with guides and the biggest tanks and theorycrafters out there - Ciderhelm and Satrina
www.elitistjerks.com - Theorycrafter paradise.

Any question, post away. Thanks for your time.
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Postby à» Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:29 am

Can you post a Drood one? I need that...
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Postby Redneckizm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:56 pm

www.bigbearbutt.com

Awesome site for ALL Druids

I used the Glyph of Maul and last night I tried to change my rotation slightly, Maul is based on your Weapon Speed (Slow ~2.60) so I kept hitting it to keep it in que while going through Mangle, Lacerate & Swipe.

For my Bear Tank, Once I get a Faerie Fire, 5 stack of Lacerate & 2 stack of mangle, I have yet to find a DPS that can pull aggro off me. Then I can focus on my DPS Shots, Maul.

In Bear form, Maul is your single highest damage blow, so between Maul, tab target + Swipe, tab target + Mangle, tab target mangle etc, I can aggro a large crowd and the DPS can AoE them down. I try not to use Challenging Roar due to the 6min CD.

ZOMG DK's! Yes, If a "Smart person" plays them, they are a HUGE raid benefit... notice the term "Smart". I hate to admit it but I am a bit of a "Stuck Up" tank... I hate pugging already made groups, I prefer to build them myself.
There was a request in Trade last night for: LF1M Tank only, HoS regular.... me being the confident & well geared 78 Bear agreed.... mistake #1. 78 Priest heals, 80 Hunter, 75 DK and I invited a 76 Lock friend. I explained the Kill order, we buffed up, ready check... everybody ready... I pull the skull, the DK Death Grip's the skull to the other side of the room.... before I got my 1st hit... now i'm chasing the main target across the room, Growled at the X, Bashed the Skull, Charged the Square that was whacking on the healer, growled at square to get him to follow me, lacerated the X, went back and Mangle/Mauled the Skull, rounded them all up & Maul/Swipe tanked them until they were all dead... narrow avoided wipe. I asked the DK in /p chat, not to use Death Grip in Dungeons unless your tanking. He was Unholy spec'd and did not have any tankable gear...
The 2nd pull is a single caster... easy enough... sometimes... I growled and then went around the corner for LoS pull... we DPS him down... 3rd pull are the 2 Elementals Stone Guards, I broadcast to "Plaz follow the kill order"... Mark up Skull & X ... Pop up a Ready Check...YANK... across the room, right in the middle of the DPS group comes the X.. 2nd target... He commences to pummeling the DK... then the healer..Lock and Hunter... I switched to Cat form and sprinted out the door.
The Healer, Hunter and DK were all from the same guild... the Healer Yells at me in CAPS "WHY DIDN'T YOU PICK HIM UP?????"... I Yelled back... "SKULL .... THEN X .... Kill order..." the same thing I have said 3 times already. I looked at teh recount and the 80 Hunter had a whopping 650 DPS, the DK was slightly over 700... I was at 700 and the lock was screaming 950.
I informed them that if the DK wanted to tank, he has to spec into tanking abilities, get better gear & enchanted, Do some homework on how to Tank or DPS in a Social environment such as Raids/Dungeons... and left the group. I have completely QUIT using any form of DK for DPS while i'm tanking, they are either "epeeners" that want to Post the damage meters after EVERY fight to show off how awesome they are while i'm constantly pulling targets off them or doing stupid $h1T like the one ^ and causing wipes.
The Lock came with me, got my own healer (from friends list) Pug'd some new friends, a Mage & SPriest... we power pulled through HoS, Gundrak and Violet Hold without any aggro issues and all 3 of them were over 1K DPS, Each Instance taking approx 30min or less. I was lucky to find a good Holy Pally that doesn't have to "Mana-up" after every pull, a Shadow Priest that knew how to Shadow Fiend, I had to Innervate the Mage once in all 3 runs and the Holy Pally never got under 50% mana!

With so much negativity on here, I like to share a Good Story once in a while. I apologize for offending any DK's with the above post, if the boot fits....

I have gotten to the Point that when I do have to go into LFG, I post a message for "LF1M DPS Non-DK" and had to make a macro for the constant whispers I get: I have met many DK's that know how to maximize their DPS and are good at playing their class, I have yet to find any that know how to play well with others in a PvE Environment and no longer accepting DK's in my group"... the funny thing is... nobody has tried to refute that message, if they did, I would likely give them a shot.
Last edited by Redneckizm on Fri May 22, 2009 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby à» Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:07 pm

THANK YOU!
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Postby Kishana » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:02 am

While rolling on my prot warrior farming heroics when Wrath was less than a month old, I grouped with a particularly good DK. He DPS'd his fair share and he'd intelligently Deathgrip and silence casters over to me. Made an awesome addition. Rare to see that in PuGs anymore. Ah the days of early expansion release when the diehards are PuGing. Fun times when most PuGs have a clue :)
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Postby Kodykahn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:33 am

Meh, I'm not sure if it was some kind of silent patch or what not, but while I was tanking a H: Drak'thar keep, (26th time and stil no f'in ring) I somehow managed to pull roughly 1960 dps overall, did they buff some kinda of bear damage?
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Postby Bunnytots » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:09 am

I do atleast 1.7k dps in heroics now, and around 2.6kish in raids.
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Postby Kodykahn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:12 am

You do that much as a bear druid, completely specced for tanking? as far as I know, I've skipped over 95% of the kitty abilities, and went all bear in my specc.

I was just curious weather or not they did a little slip in patch, like they did nerfing Ony and ZG gold drop, and ended up fixing/buffing bear dps? last time I was bear specc I know I was only pushing 1650 in heroics, so hitting almost 2000 in heroics as a tank is what was making me wonder :?
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Postby à» Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:26 am

Don't think they did that this last patch, for druid tanking anyways....I think the ZG gold was already nerfed, no?
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Postby Bunnytots » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:59 pm

I do not know about druids, and I do "light" dps because it is a BITCH on my graphics card to handle some the things at one time (5 mages all with mirror images QQ)
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Postby à» Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:20 pm

Lol, you do worse in dps cause you have to go slow? xD
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Postby Bunnytots » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:25 am

No, because I lag a whole ton, but I am usually the 5th on 25man raids and the 3rd on 10 mans
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