Patch 2.4 = Shamans Become The Worst Class In The Game

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Are shamans getting graduallly killed by every new patch?

Yes.
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No.
20
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Total votes : 36

Re: Patch 2.4 = Shamans Become The Worst Class In The Game

Postby Tankorr » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:37 am

Arcazua wrote:I think that at least 3/4 of mail gear is tuned to shamans. Different specs, but it still leaves precious little in mail gear that hunters actually want, especially survival hunters who have specialized interests in gear. There are a lot of items that Blizzard tried to make dual purpose hunter + enh shaman. They're all better for the shaman -- or at least they've GOT to be, or else they just plain suck.

When your class takes a smaller piece of the mail pie, maybe I'll actually care. Until then, I'm making a lot of rogues QQ when I find items of their's that aren't overloaded with strength or hit rating.


They aren't better for us. Almost all, non-tier, mail, raid gear, designed for non-magical DPS or healing (save for one belt from SSC) has no Strength on it. Moreover, we have next to zero use for Intellect or Mp5 on our gear (which even our tiered gear has, unfortunately). This is why Enhancement Shamans prefer to use Rogue leather items for the purposes of optimization.
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Postby Dorgol » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:54 am

lib3rator wrote:1300 bonus healing isn't decent for a pally >>

It's more than decent for the level of content I am experiencing. For PvE I can boost that up to 1650 or so, but PvP I drop it back.
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Re: Patch 2.4 = Shamans Become The Worst Class In The Game

Postby Arcazua » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:11 am

Tankorr wrote:They aren't better for us. Almost all, non-tier, mail, raid gear, designed for non-magical DPS or healing (save for one belt from SSC) has no Strength on it. Moreover, we have next to zero use for Intellect or Mp5 on our gear (which even our tiered gear has, unfortunately). This is why Enhancement Shamans prefer to use Rogue leather items for the purposes of optimization.


If it did have strength on it, it would be worthless to a hunter, which is where my contention that Blizzard is trying to walk the line with items so they only have to make one comes in. However, this is what I typically see for mail items:

* Item with +healing and intellect
* Item with +spell damage and MP5
* Item with +AP and hit/crit rating
* Item that actually has a noteworthy amount of agi on it
* Item with physical stats in some goofy arrangement that no hunter would go near.

Listed roughly in order of frequency. First two are definitely the most, then the third, and then the final two. For a survival hunter, I really only look at category #4, so the fact that less than half of mail gear can be considered hunter gear, and I'm pigeonholed even within that, sucks. It sucks because I'm not a hybrid and my class doesn't get 3 different independent sets of equipment. Look at the current badge gear and you will see (going from memory cause I counted this one time) a total of 19 mail items, and only FIVE of them are hunter-usable.

I can't comment on how many are good for enhancement shamans, but you guys have like a 3:1 advantage in the gear department as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby felldain » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:55 am

Not too mention that the benefits of having strength instead of raw A.power are fairly neglible.

In fact the only reason why you'd want to stack strength over a.power is because you'd end up with a bit more total a.power when buffed with BoK.
Oh and by the way i was being sarcastic!
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Postby Krom » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:32 am

Looking at mail items from boss to boss / badge vendor is the wrong point of view imo. I think you have to look at all the items from all the bosses at a certain tier. For example, let's look at T6 (Hyjal & BT). Some bosses really do not drop anything a hunter would want (Gurtogg, Shahraz - excepting token), whereas some drop two or more things a hunter would want (Supremus, Teron).

I think the problem presents itself if there is no suitable gear for a particular slot across a tier level.

For hunters:
Rage - Bracers
Anetheron - Boots
Kaz'rogal - BM Shoulders, (Belt)
Azgalor - Gloves, Pants
Archimonde - Helm, Bow, Chest

Naj'entus - Polearm, (Gloves)
Supremus - Bracers, XBow, Neck
Akama - Shoulders, Ring
Teron - Cloak, Boots
Reliquary - Belt
Gurtogg - ffff (ok, maybe the BP if you don't have T4 or something)
Mother - Shoulders, (Boots), (1h Weapon)
Council - Pants, Trinket, Helm
Illidan - Chest, Bow, Ring, (Helm)

Thus, overall, you can fill out every slot with a T6 item which seems fine to me. This isn't even considering the random haste mail (Kaz'rogal, Naj'entus, etc.) which you likely never want to use, nor rogue leather which is superior in some cases (Cursed Vision from Illidan).

I would say that the sheer number of items out there adequately fill all slots. The badge loot is there to fill holes in specs which aren't actively used, so relying on them as a main avenue of acquiring gear is probably the wrong outlook, especially for classes which tend to have a suitable amount of gear for them in the instances themselves.

Let's take an example. The average raid will have 1-3 hunters. Hunters are common class that performs the same role every time, and there is a set of gear that applies to them. This gear is relatively common on bosses, because of this.

The average raid will have 0 moonkin druids. Moonkin spec, historically, is not a raiding spec of the druid class. Adding moonkin loot to bosses is a waste, since it will almost entirely go to offspec use for your trees (definite raiding spec) or ferals (definite raiding spec) or elemental shaman (very useful raiding spec). So, when you look at the badge gear vendor and they have a full set of boomkin gear, it's not surprising, because how else are they going to fill that hole?

As to Arc's complaint about "gear with a noteworthy amount of agi on it"... well, you just flat out can't have everything. From a development standpoint, there are 3 hunter specs, but all hunter gear works "pretty well" for all 3 specs. The fact is, that some slots have enough variation to account for the needs of both BM and SV hunters, while still making the gear useful to both specs. There is also the fact that a large portion of the gear (set pieces for sure) is socketable, allowing you to put in as many agility gems as you want to make it more like SV gear.

Note: You could get a list of Enhancement gear (mix of hunter gear, set pieces and rogue leather) and a list of Resto Gear (looks similar to the Hunter Gear set) and Elemental Gear (set pieces, random pieces here and there, ... fucking moonkin loot from Reliquary) from the same list of bosses which fills every slot.
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Postby Arcazua » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:53 pm

Krom, I agree with you if you want to take hunters as an entire class. But if we take shamans as an entire class, we have a very fallacious argument because they have more than one role. Because hunters are concentrated, yes, there is more to use, however I would not necessarily argue that all of it is ideal for all specs. The usefulness of hit rating, haste rating, agility, MP5, and to a lesser extent int are debatable between specs.

For example, the single best DPS improvement I can get on my back slot is the cloak from Teron Gorefiend...which has zero agility on it. Compared to the cloak off Kael, this is actually really a downgrade because the rest of the raid is suffering from less benefit off Expose Weakness. In fact, it takes a fairly convincing argument to have me downgrade agility in any slot. If I do a search on equipment based *solely* on agility, this is what you will find for top items, (excluding ridiculous choices like C'thun cloak,) with bolded items being T6 gear.


Back: Kael, Shade of Aran, badges
Chest: Illidan, Kael, Hydross
Feet: Vashj, Solarian, Shahraz (leather, and just 1 better than badge boots)
Finger: Hyjal rep, ZA bonus, Hydross, Magtheridon
Hands: Attumen, Azgalor, Gruul
Head: (eng goggles), Archimonde, Zul'jin, Illidari Council
Legs: Azgalor, Void Reaver, Kazzak
Neck: JC blue, Kael, 3 kara items -- neck choices are horrid
Shoulder: pvp, Shahraz, more pvp, Nalorakk, Void Reaver
Waist: crafted (leather), Anetheron (leather), Vashj (leather), badges (leather), Essence of Anger
Wrist: Teron (leather), Rage, Solarian (leather), some crappy picks after that
Weapons (1H): ZA, ZA, Anetheron, Al'ar, pvp, Al'ar, BBW
Weapons (2H): ZA, Naj'entus, Malacrass (lol @ druid staff), Malchezzar


Now, obviously I'm taking agi in a vacuum. It's possible the #1 item on this list is not the best choice. However, it's not going to be further down the list than 3 or 4 for a surv hunter. How many of those items are from T6? You've got maybe one per slot, and as I just alluded, it might not actually be an upgrade. However, if I look at my goal equipment, not all of it is T6 (and none of it is PvP.) With how much mail crap I see that is not for any hunter, I can't imagine the enhancement shamans are THAT much worse off.
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Postby Krom » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:34 am

I don't disagree with you over the upgrade/not upgrade of certain pieces of hunter loot when considering BM vs. SV needs, based purely on the thought that a heavily AGI geared SV hunter does alot more for the raid. But, of the bolded items in your list, I'd say that almost all of those are also best in slot for BM hunters (excepting Shahraz boots, and controversial on Teron cloak). I personally don't want the Teron cloak as I have enough hit without it, using the Kael cloak, so it's not effectively an upgrade for me. I also believe that Kael Cloak/Najentus spear pair nicely as do Kael Sword/Teron Cloak.

I don't believe enhancement shaman are that much worse off, but if they want to maximize their DPS they kind of are. They have to directly compete with rogues due to the fact that many of the best DPS pieces for them are in the form of rogue leather. To maximize our DPS we have hunter specific items that pretty much go to us right away with little competition.

The same goes for elemental shaman. They take the odd piece of cloth, boomkin leather, the few pieces of damage mail and their set pieces.

The only two mail class specs that have severe preferential treatment are Hunters (and I think there are some items which are clearly better for SV than BM, but are the only real choice so BM take them, and vice versa) and Resto Shaman.

I honestly think they did an excellent job of balancing it to fit all spec needs. Of course some ele/enh shams would like more mail best-in-slot gear, and the 1-2 pieces of rogue gear that is best-in-slot for hunters as well would be nice to see in mail, but I am not going to complain overly much considering how decently itemized most of the hunter gear is. (Minus the set pieces which are pretty shitty compared to alot of the off set gear, if it wasn't for that 4 piece bonus of awesome).

I am really really looking forward to Sunwell Bracers/Belt/Boots so that I can put on Bow-Stitched Leggings and Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, which I find to be superior to the T6 pieces. Also, to be able to put on my Supremus bracers again (which I think are preferrable to the Rage ones for me) since I currently I have to wear the Rage bracers for my meta.


Edit: Actually, I think I am wrong on the shoulders. They're both pretty comparable, but I'll probably need to keep T6 shoulders to hold on to my meta. The extra crit on Hidden Predator would be nicer for SV I would imagine, however, even though T6 have more AGI when socketed appropriately.
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Postby Arcazua » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:25 pm

Dammit, completely agree and say I'm right, or completely disagree. Saying "you're right but here's my concessions" is no fun!

Part of the point I was making is that for two whole raid zones, there is on average 1 piece of moderately acceptable equipment for each slot. Even then, it's not always the best and sometimes leather. Are all of those best for BM? Honestly, idk. I would imagine not since I purely sorted on agility. I did a real list of upgrades for me today, and the list came out rather differently.


And I wish I had your gear problems. Mine is that I don't have any to begin with.
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Postby Galero » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:35 pm

Arcazua wrote:And I wish I had your gear problems. Mine is that I don't have any to begin with.


Does that mean you raid naked? :shock:
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Postby magic » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:36 am

Galero wrote:Does that mean you raid naked? :shock:


I do

Oh wait, you mean ingame..
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Postby lib3rator » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:37 am

once i raided naked because i used coca cola with mentos in a middle of a raid and i didn't had the time to wash myself and wear new clothes
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Postby Vytamindi » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:37 am

lib3rator wrote:omitted due to graphic mental images


>.o *shudder*
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Postby Esoth » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:18 pm

Do you have a source for the change to improved ghost wolf form? Because it's not in the patch notes and I have not seen it anywhere. Until a source is provided, I'm going to have to assume that shamans can now spec to get an instant ghost wolf form, as well as 50% movement slowing effect reduction. I would see that as an improvement for enh pvp.
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Postby Narya » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:10 pm

Esoth wrote:Do you have a source for the change to improved ghost wolf form? Because it's not in the patch notes and I have not seen it anywhere. Until a source is provided, I'm going to have to assume that shamans can now spec to get an instant ghost wolf form, as well as 50% movement slowing effect reduction. I would see that as an improvement for enh pvp.


test realm patch notes gets updated all the time, as of March 19, 2008...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnot ... notes.html

• Ghost Wolf: Cast time reduced to 2 seconds, down from 3.

• Toughness will now also reduce the duration of movement slowing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.
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Postby The Great JT » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:43 pm

Ghost Wolf is pretty much useless after you get a mount, it's still a magic effect, thereby dispellable, and it doesn't get you out of snares and roots (unlike Druid's Travel Form).

And Toughness's effect is really the only signifigant increase to shaman playablility. Now if only they'd get rid of Dazed we'd be looking at playability.

Or if they'd institute physics we'd have crowd control when people trip over our corpses.
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